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	<title>Comments on: Book Review: Works of Sahl and Masha&#8217;Allah by Ben Dykes</title>
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	<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/</link>
	<description>The best astrology blog in the world.  Seriously.</description>
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		<title>By: The Katarche of Horary » The Horoscopic Astrology Blog</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-2369</link>
		<dc:creator>The Katarche of Horary » The Horoscopic Astrology Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-2369</guid>
		<description>[...] translation Works of Sahl and Masha&#8217;allah basically confirmed the thesis of my paper.  See my review of Works of Sahl and Masha&#8217;allah for more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] translation Works of Sahl and Masha&#8217;allah basically confirmed the thesis of my paper.  See my review of Works of Sahl and Masha&#8217;allah for more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Latest News as of January 2009 &#124; Chris Brennan's Astrology Blog</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-1483</link>
		<dc:creator>Latest News as of January 2009 &#124; Chris Brennan's Astrology Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-1483</guid>
		<description>[...] The second mention was in Ben Dykes&#8217; compilation of Medieval translations titled Works of Sahl and Masha&#8217;allah, primarily due to the many discussions that I had with Ben about the origins of horary astrology while he was writing the book.   I wrote a review of the book on the Horoscopic Astrology blog. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The second mention was in Ben Dykes&#8217; compilation of Medieval translations titled Works of Sahl and Masha&#8217;allah, primarily due to the many discussions that I had with Ben about the origins of horary astrology while he was writing the book.   I wrote a review of the book on the Horoscopic Astrology blog. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: What&#8217;s Going On In The Astrology-Blogosphere » The Horoscopic Astrology Blog</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-1053</link>
		<dc:creator>What&#8217;s Going On In The Astrology-Blogosphere » The Horoscopic Astrology Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 23:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-1053</guid>
		<description>[...] becoming one of the leading Medieval astrologers in the world due to his recent translations of Guido Bonatti, Sahl ibn Bishr and Masha&#8217;allah.  The interviews on Nina&#8217;s site give us a rare glimpse into the minds of two of the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] becoming one of the leading Medieval astrologers in the world due to his recent translations of Guido Bonatti, Sahl ibn Bishr and Masha&#8217;allah.  The interviews on Nina&#8217;s site give us a rare glimpse into the minds of two of the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Brennan</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-368</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 04:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-368</guid>
		<description>I exchanged a couple of emails with Heilen earlier this year and he didn&#039;t seem like he was up to the challenge of finishing Theophilius, unfortunately.

It is true that Pingree wasn&#039;t making a distinction between consultation charts and interrogational astrology when he translated the Yavanajataka, although later in his life, at some point in the 90&#039;s, he seems to have realized that there wasn&#039;t any interrogational astrology in the Yavanajataka.  I assume at that point that he realized that there was a distinction, although aside from changing his stance on the horary issue I haven&#039;t found anything in his later writings which explicitly indicates that he acknowledged the distinction.

I am in the process of trying to acquire a better translation of the Satpañcasika right now, and once I do I should be able to determine whether or not it was indeed fully interrogational, or whether it was still largely based on the consultation chart.  I strongly suspect that this is the point at which horary became pronounced in the Indian tradition though, and if you look at Pingree&#039;s notes in the Yavanajataka you see that he ended up reconstructing large parts of the later &#039;interrogational&#039; chapters of the Yavanajataka based on the work of Varahamihira.  This may have been the reason why he initially thought that the Yavanajataka dealt specifically with questions.

I&#039;m glad to hear that you enjoyed the CCAG scans!  Although I did pass those off to Pingree&#039;s student, I cannot take credit for scanning them, as they were given to me by Rob Hand.  I am in the process of scanning volumes 8 through 12 now though.  Some are still under copyright though, so we may not be able to put them all up on the same website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I exchanged a couple of emails with Heilen earlier this year and he didn&#8217;t seem like he was up to the challenge of finishing Theophilius, unfortunately.</p>
<p>It is true that Pingree wasn&#8217;t making a distinction between consultation charts and interrogational astrology when he translated the Yavanajataka, although later in his life, at some point in the 90&#8217;s, he seems to have realized that there wasn&#8217;t any interrogational astrology in the Yavanajataka.  I assume at that point that he realized that there was a distinction, although aside from changing his stance on the horary issue I haven&#8217;t found anything in his later writings which explicitly indicates that he acknowledged the distinction.</p>
<p>I am in the process of trying to acquire a better translation of the Satpañcasika right now, and once I do I should be able to determine whether or not it was indeed fully interrogational, or whether it was still largely based on the consultation chart.  I strongly suspect that this is the point at which horary became pronounced in the Indian tradition though, and if you look at Pingree&#8217;s notes in the Yavanajataka you see that he ended up reconstructing large parts of the later &#8216;interrogational&#8217; chapters of the Yavanajataka based on the work of Varahamihira.  This may have been the reason why he initially thought that the Yavanajataka dealt specifically with questions.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad to hear that you enjoyed the CCAG scans!  Although I did pass those off to Pingree&#8217;s student, I cannot take credit for scanning them, as they were given to me by Rob Hand.  I am in the process of scanning volumes 8 through 12 now though.  Some are still under copyright though, so we may not be able to put them all up on the same website.</p>
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		<title>By: Osthanes</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-367</link>
		<dc:creator>Osthanes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-367</guid>
		<description>We may hope that having finished Rhetorius&#039; edition, Stephan Heilen might subsume Pingree&#039;s work on Theophilus as well.
I remember searching in CCAG I found a chapter title of Theophilus containing &#039;erōtēsis&#039; which is horary question, but it can be a later addition as a title. The other arguments seem to be somewhat weak for me at this stage. Pingree himself did not make difference between intentional and interrogational astrology - as it can be seen from his Yāvanajātaka commentary -, thus his allusions may not be correct when he is speaking about interrogations. I do not have Prthuyaśas&#039; Satpañcasika at hand, but from the scattery bits of information it sounds like being written about intentions, not interrogations. The same might be true for Theophilus&#039; military astrology which was clearly catarchic in the time of Julian of Laodicea. And unfortunately, this little piece from the introduction of Theophilus&#039; Apotelesmatics proves nothing: &#039;peusis&#039; meaning &#039;asking for information&#039; can stand for intentions as well.

BTW, Chris, will you upload more volumes of CCAG to the Pingree memorial webpage? I would like to express how grateful I am as you have uploaded some.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We may hope that having finished Rhetorius&#8217; edition, Stephan Heilen might subsume Pingree&#8217;s work on Theophilus as well.<br />
I remember searching in CCAG I found a chapter title of Theophilus containing &#8216;erōtēsis&#8217; which is horary question, but it can be a later addition as a title. The other arguments seem to be somewhat weak for me at this stage. Pingree himself did not make difference between intentional and interrogational astrology &#8211; as it can be seen from his Yāvanajātaka commentary -, thus his allusions may not be correct when he is speaking about interrogations. I do not have Prthuyaśas&#8217; Satpañcasika at hand, but from the scattery bits of information it sounds like being written about intentions, not interrogations. The same might be true for Theophilus&#8217; military astrology which was clearly catarchic in the time of Julian of Laodicea. And unfortunately, this little piece from the introduction of Theophilus&#8217; Apotelesmatics proves nothing: &#8216;peusis&#8217; meaning &#8216;asking for information&#8217; can stand for intentions as well.</p>
<p>BTW, Chris, will you upload more volumes of CCAG to the Pingree memorial webpage? I would like to express how grateful I am as you have uploaded some.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Brennan</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-366</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-366</guid>
		<description>There appears to be some material on interrogations in the excerpts from Theophilus&#039; treatise on war in CCAG 11 part 1, chapters 10 &amp; 11.   Pingree was working on a new critical edition of texts from Theophilus before he died, and one of them was supposed to contain a lot more material on interrogations.  Unfortunately it doesn&#039;t look like anyone has decided to bring that project to completion after Pingree&#039;s death, and I&#039;m not sure if we will ever see it at this point.

Pingree points out in his paper From Alexandria to Baghdad to Byzantium (pg. 16):    &quot;In the preface to his , Theophilus refers to the Περι καταρχων διαφόρων as the κοσμικαι αποτελεσεις και αι πευσιν καταρχαί (“cosmic effects and initiatives in accordance with interrogation”), thereby signalling the relationship of catarchic to interrogational astrology.&quot;   This statement from Theophilus is in CCAG 5, part 1, pgs. 234-238.

As far as the Indian tradition goes, Varāhamihira&#039;s son Prithuyasas (c. 550) wrote an important work on horary titled Shatpanchasika.    What is interesting is that Pingree points out that Theophilus was drawing on Varāhamihira in his work in military astrology.  One wonders if Indian works on interrogational astrology also influenced Theophilus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There appears to be some material on interrogations in the excerpts from Theophilus&#8217; treatise on war in CCAG 11 part 1, chapters 10 &amp; 11.   Pingree was working on a new critical edition of texts from Theophilus before he died, and one of them was supposed to contain a lot more material on interrogations.  Unfortunately it doesn&#8217;t look like anyone has decided to bring that project to completion after Pingree&#8217;s death, and I&#8217;m not sure if we will ever see it at this point.</p>
<p>Pingree points out in his paper From Alexandria to Baghdad to Byzantium (pg. 16):    &#8220;In the preface to his , Theophilus refers to the Περι καταρχων διαφόρων as the κοσμικαι αποτελεσεις και αι πευσιν καταρχαί (“cosmic effects and initiatives in accordance with interrogation”), thereby signalling the relationship of catarchic to interrogational astrology.&#8221;   This statement from Theophilus is in CCAG 5, part 1, pgs. 234-238.</p>
<p>As far as the Indian tradition goes, Varāhamihira&#8217;s son Prithuyasas (c. 550) wrote an important work on horary titled Shatpanchasika.    What is interesting is that Pingree points out that Theophilus was drawing on Varāhamihira in his work in military astrology.  One wonders if Indian works on interrogational astrology also influenced Theophilus.</p>
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		<title>By: Osthanes</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-365</link>
		<dc:creator>Osthanes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 14:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-365</guid>
		<description>Chris, could you point out some sources? I would be really glad if I was able to find anything interrogational among Theophilus&#039; fragments in CCAG or an Indian source clearly on horary. Thanks a lot!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, could you point out some sources? I would be really glad if I was able to find anything interrogational among Theophilus&#8217; fragments in CCAG or an Indian source clearly on horary. Thanks a lot!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Brennan</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-364</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-364</guid>
		<description>I doubt that Masha&#039;allah was the first to develop interrogational astrology because we have fragments from Theophilus of Edessa on interrogations, as well as inerrogational material from the Indian tradition that antedates Masha&#039;allah.   It is interesting to see how horary changes a bit between Masha&#039;allah and Sahl though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt that Masha&#8217;allah was the first to develop interrogational astrology because we have fragments from Theophilus of Edessa on interrogations, as well as inerrogational material from the Indian tradition that antedates Masha&#8217;allah.   It is interesting to see how horary changes a bit between Masha&#8217;allah and Sahl though.</p>
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		<title>By: cupbeans</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-363</link>
		<dc:creator>cupbeans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-363</guid>
		<description>Sounds like a book that one should need a lot of free time to read but it sounds interesting in the context of the history of astrology</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like a book that one should need a lot of free time to read but it sounds interesting in the context of the history of astrology</p>
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		<title>By: Osthanes</title>
		<link>http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/06/07/book-review-works-of-sahl-and-mashaallah-by-ben-dykes/comment-page-1/#comment-362</link>
		<dc:creator>Osthanes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apotelesmatics.wordpress.com/?p=289#comment-362</guid>
		<description>While this translation of Māshā’allāh&#039;s (and Sahl&#039;s) works is really a milestone - like that of Bonatti was -, the origin and perhaps the inventor of interrogative astrology is still an open question. Could Māshā’allāh himself be the inventor? There are strong arguments: practically, he is the last in Western astrology who uses intentional framework and the first to describe an interrogative theory. Of course, it was not him but Sahl who developed its details some 20 years later. Still, is it possible that Māshā’allāh was the inventor? Perhaps his unpublished Arabic works on this topic could be really helpful as well as some research in Indian astrology which is the originator of intentional astrology. Unfortunately, scholars seem to be unaware of the difference between interrogation and intention, so it would be really fruitful to get some first-hand information from these early works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While this translation of Māshā’allāh&#8217;s (and Sahl&#8217;s) works is really a milestone &#8211; like that of Bonatti was -, the origin and perhaps the inventor of interrogative astrology is still an open question. Could Māshā’allāh himself be the inventor? There are strong arguments: practically, he is the last in Western astrology who uses intentional framework and the first to describe an interrogative theory. Of course, it was not him but Sahl who developed its details some 20 years later. Still, is it possible that Māshā’allāh was the inventor? Perhaps his unpublished Arabic works on this topic could be really helpful as well as some research in Indian astrology which is the originator of intentional astrology. Unfortunately, scholars seem to be unaware of the difference between interrogation and intention, so it would be really fruitful to get some first-hand information from these early works.</p>
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