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Astrology of the 2008 Election – Birth Data Problems

Posted by on January 6, 2008 at 4:50 pm35 Comments

As I said in my previous post on Hillary Clinton’s birth chart earlier this year, one of the biggest issues that astrologers are going to run into when trying to make predictions about the upcoming election is that birth data for the majority of the candidates is pretty scarce. Basically, we just don’t have reliable birth times for a number of the candidates, and this information is quite important when casting charts and making predictions using horoscopic astrology.

That was the state of things earlier this year, and I had hoped that matters would have improved since then, but unfortunately the status of the birth data for the majority of the candidates is still a pretty dismal state of affairs. Recent events have led me to be a bit more skeptical about three of the candidates proposed times in particular, so I would like to address that issue briefly here.

Hillary Clinton’s Birth Time

Earlier this year I attended the NCGR astrological conference in Baltimore where I sat in on a lecture about the 2008 election. Naturally during the course of the lecture the point came up that the birth data for many of the candidates is either nonexistent or highly ambiguous. At one point the subject of Hillary Clinton’s natal chart came up, for which there are several different proposed birth times with different sources, and there was a discussion about which chart was the correct one.

Towards the end of the discussion about the different proposed birth times an older woman who was sitting off to the left hand side of the room stood up and stated quite calmly and sort of mysteriously that Hillary was born at 8:02 am, and that the Scorpio rising chart was the correct one. The unusual air of calmness and conviction about the woman kind of struck me as interesting, and I quickly jotted down the time. When I had done some cursory investigations into Hillary’s birth chart the previous fall I had come to the conclusion that the Scorpio rising chart was likely the correct one, although I was still perplexed to hear this woman state a precise time with such assurance, almost as if she had some sort of inside information.

As chance would have it, a couple of days later, after the conference had ended, I was just checking out of my room and walking out to the car with my friends when I happened to run into the woman by the hotel elevator. I was still really curious why she was so confident about Hillary’s birth time, so I asked her about it. Although I can’t remember the precise words she used now, she basically said something to the effect that she did have some sort of inside information and either she or someone she was close to had seen the birth certificate. She told me that someone had once told Hillary something bad about the sign Scorpio, and that was the reason why Hillary didn’t want to confirm the actual birth time, and that is why there are so many different birth times floating around. She seemed quite sincere about it, and I was kind of excited to get this sort of inside information. I thanked the woman for sharing this with me and asked her what her name was. She said that her name was Frances McEvoy.

Obama & Romney’s Birth Time

A month or so ago I received an encouraging email from a reader of my blog who was interested in hearing more about my take on the US election after seeing my successful prediction about the French election earlier this year. I began looking into the US election again to see if any astrologers had been able to get more reliable birth data on some of the candidates. I was looking through AstroDataBank and I noticed that there was solid birth time for Mitt Romney of 9:51 am, although I was slightly surprised to see that it came from the same Frances McEvoy that had given me the birth time for Hillary. According to ADB Frances McEvoy “quotes him”, which presumably means that she met him at a campaign rally at some point in the past year and asked him his birth time directly. While it was great to have a birth time for another one of the leading candidates in the election, for some reason I felt a bit uneasy about the fact that I was now relying on one astrologer for the data on two of the candidates.

Later in the same week I began asking around to see if anyone knew who the source of the 1:06 pm birth time was for Barack Obama. I came to find out that, according to one website, the 1:06 pm time

was relayed by astrologer Frances McEvoy to astrology newsgroups, and supposedly originated from Obama’s own memory when he was asked what time he was born during his New Hampshire visit.

That’s right. The source for our birth data on three of our candidates comes from the same person. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to ask Frances about this because a few days after I realized that she was the source for these three candidates data, she passed away. On December 10th actually.

Now, I’m not trying to say that Ms. McEvoy was putting out faulty data, but only that the circumstances were kind of unusual in that she was the main source for birth data on these three candidates, and there could be some issues involved with that.

According to another astrologer I know named Robert Blashke she was also the original source of the birth time for John Kerry prior to the 2004 election. From what I can tell from the AstroDataBank records, Frances was originally told by Kerry’s mother that he was born sometime around “sunrise”. Having only a general notion that Kerry was born sometime around sunrise she then seems to have played with the time a bit in order to come up with what she felt was a plausible ascendant, and she submitted it to AstroDataBank as an exact time of 7:10 am. Later Blashke actually spoke with Kerry’s sister-in-law by his first marriage, and she gave him an exact birth time of 8:03 am, which was nearly an hour later than McEvoy’s rectified time.

So my point here is that we don’t know at this point, or I don’t know, if the times given to Frances McEvoy for Clinton, Obama and Romney were exact times straight from the birth certificate, or if they were general times like Kerry’s which she then ‘rectified’ or adjusted somehow. When dealing with some of the more precise techniques that I work with, such as the ‘lots’ for example, even the slightest changes in time can really alter the entire character of the birth chart and any predictions that might be based on it. Even in Obama’s case, more precise techniques aside, the Moon is in a completely different sign if he was born just a few minutes before the 1:06 pm birth time.

John Edwards’ Birth Time

Interestingly enough, there are some issues surrounding John Edwards’ birth time that are somewhat related to the previous issues surrounding Kerry’s. The currently accepted time for Edwards is 7:02 AM based on what some anonymous staffer as well as his mother said on different occasions. However, according to the original entry on AstroDataBank

On November 4, 2004, PT talked with Sat Siri Khalsa who says that she attended a political rally in which she was able to slip a note to Elizabeth Edwards asking for the candidates’ birth times. Sat Siri says Elizabeth Edwards smiled, walked over to the candidates and came back with the note on which Mrs. Edwards had written that John Kerry was born between midnight and 1 AM and that John Edwards was born at 7:23 AM.

This source gives us a birth time that is about 21 minutes later for Edwards than the other two sources are. Notice though that this was one of the original sources for Kerry’s birth data, but the time given is totally wrong according to the later established data for Kerry having been born around sunrise, or at 8:03 am to be exact. It would seem logical that this 7:23 birth time should just be discarded as a bogus source due to the previous discrepancy with Kerry’s time, although as it stands now this is still ‘C’ data on AstroDataBank since there are inconsistencies between the sources and the accuracy of the time is still in question.

Birth Times for Giuliani, McCain, Richardson, and Biden

Apparently we are in somewhat decent shape with Rudy Giuliani due to an ‘anonymous’ source that wrote in to AstroDataBank in late 2005 with a 2:30 pm birth time, supposedly from Giuliani’s mother. ADB was apparently confident enough in their source to list this as ‘A’ data, or ‘from memory’, but it still seems kind of sketchy. I guess that it is better than nothing though, and it could be in the ballpark even though it is clearly a rounded time.

Pat Taglilatelo from AstroDataBank says in a recent article in the December/January issue of the Mountain Astrologer that she has a copy of Bill Richardson’s birth certificate ‘in hand’, and his birth time is 11:35 am.

According to the same article, Joseph Biden’s birth time is 8:30 am apparently. This comes from Marion March, who got it from someone else named Celeste Longacre, who says that it came from him in ‘Welcome to Planet Earth’, whatever that is.

John McCain’s birth time is reported to be 9:00 AM according to staffers working for his campaign. The time obviously seems rounded, although we don’t know by how much.

Birth Times for Paul, Huckabee and Thompson (or lack thereof)

In short, for Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee, and Fred Thompson we have got absolutely nothing in the way of verified birth times. Zip. Zilch. Zero.


With all of the confusion still surrounding the birth times of pretty much all of the candidates, it seems like we aren’t in a much better position to make predictions about the final outcome of the upcoming election than we were a year ago. Our only real options are either (A) to get more astrologers trying to contact the candidates and their staff in order to get verified birth times, or (B) to attempt to rectify each of their charts individually. The former option seems like the most reliable thing to do, while the latter seems like the most tedious and unreliable option when what we need are exact birth times, although ultimately if we are still coming up empty handed a few months from now it may be our only choice.

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About Chris Brennan

Chris is a practicing astrologer from Denver, Colorado, USA. He is the former President of the Association for Young Astrologers, as well as the former Research Director of the National Council for Geocosmic Research. He offers personal consultations and teaches online classes through his website at

Hellenistic Astrology Course


  • Debbie says:

    FYI Frances was very good about obtaining birth data and if you know anything about her you would know that her information is likely extremely reliable.

  • That is what I assumed, I was just curious how she was able to score birth data for all three candidates, and if they were exact times from the birth certificate or partial rectifications like the Kerry data appears to be. She seemed very nice when I met her in person though, and I’m sorry that I wasn’t able to get to know her better.

  • ccpup says:

    I’ve been watching both Hillary’s chart — with an 8 AM birthtime — and Obama’s chart — with the 1:06 PM time — and have noticed some things which may, or may not, help you rectify their charts.

    Obama’s currently experiencing SP Moon over his Natal Jupiter and trine his Natal Moon. In fact, at the time of the Iowa Caucus, the SP Moon was very tightly trine his Natal Moon. As this SP Moon moves away from Jupiter in mid-January and then begins opposing his Natal Mercury, we’ll see if he has difficulty adjusting to a more detail oriented message rather than the overtly Jupiter one he’s been using. And with the upcoming Saturn transits to his Pluto, his Chiron and, later, station square his Natal Moon and inconjunct his SP Moon, it may become easier to rectify his chart based on whether he’s showing the tension and recalibrating inherent in these aspects.

    With Hillary, what I found fascinating was at the time of the (in)famous “teary episode she had a conjunction of Tr. Jupiter and Tr. Moon trine what is her — with the 8 AM time — Virgo MC. She’s also been undergoing SP Moon square this same MC, but, as that’s now waning and no longer as tight as it was during Iowa — and it was VERY tight –, it’ll be interesting to see how she does the rest of this month.

    If the 8 AM chart is correct, she’ll have (among other things) SA Jupiter = Natal Sun on Election Day, SP Venus square Sun, SP Jupiter trine her Pluto/Mars conjunction, SP Sun trine MC and Tr. Pluto sextile N. Sun and then trine MC around or actually on Inauguration Day.

    I look forward to whatever thoughts you have on this.

  • sonja foxe says:

    Chris — Frances McEvoy is — was — a dedicated political junkie — she had connexions in boston — i think she had been a newspaper woman.

    Re: obama — well if he were born any early his moon would have been v/o/c in taurus; given that he declared his candidacy on a v/o/c moon, I’d expect he’d been dead in the water by now — the 1:06 time therefore credible given the person

    re: hillary — well, she was born in edgewater hospital about a half mile due west of my apartment — I heard around 8 am — i rectified her chart a number of years ago to about 7:35 am — if she were born at 8 she would have had 4 virgo on mc — the eclipse there late last summer should have caused some sort of blip on her radar. if i’m right, the eclipse this coming center on slickwillie’s birthday should be right on her mc/nadir and collapse her campaign (if she prevails as nominee).

    edwards — no opinion

    sonja foxe

  • Marie says:

    Birth records including time of birth are kept at the hospital or county courthouse records files. What is the big mystery ?

  • Different states have different laws about who can access those files. Some, such as New York, are quite strict.

  • Joyce Levine says:

    In Massachusetts birth records are open to the public. Anyone can go into the Registry of Vital Records and look up times. Frances McEvoy frequently either went into the Registry or sent members of the Boston Chapter of NCGR in to the Registry to discover birth times.

    That being said, Hillary Clinton told me directly that she was born at 8 PM. She wasn’t particularly happy with the question, but she did answer it. I asked her at a political fund raiser on October 28, 2005 in Boston, sponsored by Barbara Lee. Barbara Lee raises incredibly large amounts of money for female Democrats running for office. This event raised $500,000 for four female Senators running for office – Hillary Clinton, Debbie Stabnow, Maria Cantwell, and Dianne Feinstein. I’m active in women’s business circles in Boston and was on the Committee to raise funds, so it would have been hard for Hillary to avoid me.

  • Thanks for your comment Joyce. Is it possible that Hillary would have deliberately given you a wrong time, perhaps since she wasn’t very happy being asked the question to begin with, as you say? Frances told me that there was some sort of deliberate attempt to give out the wrong time due to Hillary thinking that the actual birth time implied something negative, so that is the only reason why I ask. This definitely changes things if Hillary herself is standing by the 8:00 pm time though.

  • Joyce Levine says:


    Anything is possible. It’s not my impression that Hillary gave me the wrong time, only that she was annoyed with the question.

    I must admit that I’ve always favored the 8 PM time. It puts Juno right on her 7th house cusp. Also, she seems more like a fifth house sun to me than a twelfh house sun.

    The time also fits with the trouble she’s been having with the nomination. Transiting Pluto is around her descendant and square her moon if 8 PM is the correct time.

  • The 8:00pm birth time works for me, as well. If you look at her major defeat in Iowa with that birth time, Pluto was not only peeking over her DESC but also solidly square her natal Moon in the 10th. Also, right now t. Neptune is loping through her 9th, opposing natal Saturn in the 3rd. That is certainly confirming her defeat today, and with the t. Sun conjunct that t. Neptune tomorrow, she’s going to have some hard things to look at.

    Also, I just don’t buy that Hillary is superstitious about astrology. What she’s said so far about her religious beliefs, as well as her pragmatism in other areas, leads me to believe her annoyance with the question is that she doesn’t believe in astrology but doesn’t want to begrudge other people “doing their thing.” Vous savez?

    Speaking of French, actually, you didn’t have to be an astrologer to predict that Sarkozy would win the election. 😀 I was living in France for the duration of the election. The heat for him was unbelievable. What you did have to be an astrologer to predict was that Bayrou was having a Finger of God that at first gave him major power in the election even after he dropped out, and then when he announced he was officially creating a Centrist Party. Here are a couple of my journal entries tracking my observations with the FoG.


    I didn’t have a birth time for him. I didn’t need it in this case because there were slow-moving planets involved. I don’t know that we need a solid time to get some of the big hits. And for Hillary, that big hit is just tracking t. Neptune opposing her natal Saturn. That’s big enough, methinks, to turn this thing on her ear. Um, so to speak.

    Cheers! 🙂

  • Fernando says:

    Chris, I think you’d be sad to learn that your blog is being used as a reference source, in Brazil , in a discussion group ( traditional astrology) by some(young)one to call Frances a “crazy” woman who is “not serious because rectifies charts and is the same source for 3 candidates birthtimes”. She was my mentor and friend, I met you in Baltimore as well, and nobody is perfect.

  • That is rather disturbing. That is certainly not what I was trying to convey or imply in my article.

    I’m trying to locate this group now, but I’m having some problems finding it with the link that you gave me.

  • Obama wonderer says:

    Just want to know the significance of Aug 6 1961…are there any special happenings in the sky; eclipse, anything unusual?
    Also are there any ‘water’ signs related to his birthday?

  • Fernando says:

    Chris, thanks for your support, here it is a more complete link. I initiated a discussion over there about the subject as well. You have readers from Brazil and it’s good. It was a misapropiation of your words, you did not implied that, it’ was clear, but I thoguh you’d like to know about that. Also, I will comment later about your other blog on the NCGR/ISAR unofrtunate articles about Traditional X Psychology astrology you’ve posted (the same debates in Brazil, a more Morin-traditional astrology country). Was nice to meet you in Baltimore. Wish you’ve had the opportunity to know Frances and I (and many) did. Peace! Thanks!


    Link do tópico dentro da Comunidade:

  • I have rectified the horoscope of Hillary D. Rodham Clinton, which time 8.02 a.m. became 8.01.59.
    You can see her horoscope and of other persons on my website:
    There are shown progressive aspects of her horoscope from now till 4 november 2008, election day.
    On 4 march 2008, which is important day for her she has the transit jupiter sextile radix venus.

  • PismoPam says:

    Thanks for a great thread – thrilled at the internet and its ability to attract important information in such an organic way! What a wonderful, exciting time to be alive.

    If Hillary was born at 8 PM, she has 29 Pisces Moon, with transiting Pluto slicing and dicing her for quite a while. As Jon Stewart noted, her progressed Mercury is at 29 Sag on election day, with transiting Pluto conjunct.
    This video uses Jon Stewart’s 28 Scorpio rising.

  • HillaryGuy says:

    From Wikipedia:

    “Baby boomer is a North American-English term used to describe a person born between 1946 and 1964.”

    Both Hillary & Obama are “Baby Boomers”.

  • astrology truth seeker says:

    I have studied astrology as a hobby for over 10 years now. I am not formally trained of educated in the science but I have read many books and done the charts of many of my friends whom are also enthusiastic about the science.

    That said…I have to say that I do not believe that the birth time McEvoy obtained from Obama was correct. I have studied his chart based on him being born at 1:06pm and also 11:06pm.

    The later time seems more fitting to him and what is going on in this campaign. I’ve studied hid physical attributes and appearance and it is not one of a sorpio rising but more of a libra rising. He is described as charming (total libra rising trait). He speaks of unifiying everyone, listening to everyone, crossing party lines and bridging the gap. Also, I believe his moon must be in tarus not gemini. Again, He seem to have more taurean qualities (IE he always wears the same or similar suit). He is thoughtful and delibert when he responds to questions. I could go on and on about this but I will not belabor the point.

    If any of you real astrologers are thinking the same thing I am please share your insight with me and what Obama being born at 11:06am instead of 1:06pm really means. Is it a better time? does it mean he has a better shoot at winning?

    Please share your thoughts.

  • JB says:

    Let’s agree that Obama is not a Taurus Moon but a Gemini Moon.

    To me this is self-evident. The two moons are as different as can be.

    So his birthtime is likely after 1 pm.

  • Marianne says:

    Hi Chris,

    I read with interest your article in Planet Waves. I started collecting birth data, numerology and Mayan sun sign data in Dec. ’06 of all the presidential contenders

    The chart I printed out for Hillary Clinton from Rodden’s Astrodatabank shows a birth time of 8 PM, not AM. Did it change and why? Just the reasons already given like she lied to avoid Scorpio ascendant, or?

    What concerns me most about her is the conjunction of Mars, Saturn and Pluto in Leo. It would be really good to know which house this is in!

    Also, in considering her numerology, she is a 30/3. The strong point here being the 0, inner gifts. 30/0 is expressed: Those on this life path are here to work through issues of expression and sensitivity, overcoming self doubt to express themselves and use their inner gifts to encourage, uplift, and inspire others.

    Barack Obama, if the birth time of 1:06 pm is correct has a fine conjunction in the 10th house, government, and in spite of any afflictions, I feel he is evolved enough to make it all work for him and us.

    His numerology life path is 29/11, 11 being a master number giving double creativity and confidence. 2 is cooperation and balance and 9 is integrity and wisdom. The whole description is: Those on this life path are here to combine creative energy with higher principles and integrity, finding ways to apply their creativity in service of others, aligned with higher wisdom. (The numerology is from THE LIFE YOU WERE BORN TO LIVE by Dan Millman)

    You’ll easily guess my choice for president.

  • astrology truth seeker says:

    Does anyone think Obama could also have libra rising which would explain his charming initial appaerance as well as being prcieved as “soft”. I have slways been told that libra men were sometimes femine and libra woman sometimes “butch” or tomeboyish. Is this a accurate statement?

    If this is so consider his birth time around 11:30 am. This would explain even more (i think) and even give him more favorable aspects to being president. I think? what does anyone else think?

  • Steven says:

    Hello Chris, and thanks for this thoughtful, yet realistic observation. I spent most of the morning sorting out the transits for McCain and Obama using 9 am and 1:05 pm, and of course giving lots of thought to the exact opposition on election day, and it’ proximity to McCain’s opposition Venus/Saturn.
    My gut feeling is that the Republicans will steal it again, but Obama really looks better on November 4. My next step is inauguration day transits. Any suggestions?
    Steven from

  • Hi Steven,

    A new time for Obama was recently revealed at a major astrology conference a few weeks ago by an astrologer who apparently had close contacts with his campaign. The new time that everyone is using is 7:11 PM, with Aquarius rising. This is of course precisely the reason why I wrote the article cautioning people about making definite predictions based on the data that was in circulation. I hope to have a new article up about what happened at the conference soon.

  • […] with caution with respect to predictions about the election a few months ago in my article on birth data issues in the 2008 election. I’ve been hearing reports for a while now that a number of Indian astrologers were saying […]

  • […] with caution with respect to predictions about the election a few months ago in my article on birth data issues in the 2008 election. I’ve been hearing reports for a while now that a number of Indian astrologers were saying that […]

  • Alberta says:

    Barack Obama’s birth certificate has been published on his website under smears. It shows him born at 7:24 P.M. in Honolulu Hawaii on August 4, 1961

  • […] presidential election is only a few weeks away and we appear to have reliable birth data for Obama, McCain and Biden at this point, although there is still one missing piece:  we don’t have a reliable birth […]

  • Maggie Meister says:

    Hi Chris,

    You said:

    “According to the same article, Joseph Biden’s birth time is 8:30 am apparently. This comes from Marion March, who got it from someone else named Celeste Longacre, who says that it came from him in ‘Welcome to Planet Earth’, whatever that is.”

    Celeste Longacre was collecting data for a long time – I remember from back in the late 1970’s. She’s from NH I think.

    Welcome to Planet Earth was a newspaper/magazine published by Mark Lerner from around 1980 until 2000. Jim Lewis was a fan (or he was a fan of Jim’s) and so of course there was great interest in mundane astrology. IIRC, Mark was the one who made the connection with the early mutables and plane crashes as well as the square to the eclipse point in quakes. (memory’s fuzzy here)

    Frances McEvoy was one of the great data collectors of my era along with Lois Rodden, Marion March, Ed Steinbrecher, Grazia Bordoni (in Italy) and Alois Treindel. Like Marion March, she knew personally many of the celebs whose data she collected.

    Thanks for your honest search for the proper birthdata. Good job!

  • Thanks Maggie!

    I should note that a birth certificate for John McCain has recently appeared, and it gives a birth time of 6:25 PM:

    Additionally, since I wrote this article last year, Obama’s birth certificate has also become available, and it lists a birth time of 7:24 PM:

  • Hi Chris,

    Yes I have those, thanks. Interesting the Sabian symbol for that ascendant is:

    ” Sabian symbol for Asc 5 Pi 59

    > You may feel that recognition is being given for service and
    > dedication to the community. It is a time to be aware of duty, honor
    > and the protection of higher ideals. Dedication, discipline and duty
    > bring their own rewards. National pride being displayed. If negative
    > – something `stiff’ and unfeeling about the display. Having special privileges that other’s don’t.

    Best, Maggie

  • […] Update: See my latest article on birth data problems in the 2008 election. […]

  • […] January 6th, 2008 I published an article detailing who we did and did not have confirmed birth times for, as well as some of the problems with the birth times that were currently in use at that point.  […]

  • […] and had been known to inaccurately rectify times. Chris Brennan discusses this precise issue in this article about the problems with birthdata for the candidates of the 2008 […]